Tue, 16 June 2015
How do you manage a hosting and software development company that has staff in three different countries and two different time zones, all while you’re in a different country yourself?
Richard: Hi everyone, Richard Tubb here and I’m joined today by Marc Gadsdon. How are you doing, Marc?
Marc: Very good, thanks, Richard. Nice to be here, thank you very much.
Richard: So, you are the owner of InTuition, a London-based hosting company. Tell me a little bit more about InTuition.
Marc: Yeah, so I’m one of the directors of InTuition Networks. We’re a long-time provider of email, both email security and email collaboration. Zimbra is our key product, our services are based on Zimbra. We chose Zimbra in 2006.
We were looking around for an alternative to our POP3 infrastructure that we had quite a few POP3 mailboxes and we didn't want to go down the Exchange route because last time, Microsoft Exchange was a difficult product to manage at scale.
And we found Zimbra, it's a new solution built by a bunch of really clever engineers in Silicon Valley. And pretty quickly grew quite fast. We became one of the early partners in 2006. And we started hosting it, build a platform in our London data center.
And Zimbra was sold to Yahoo!, Yahoo! took it off the scale in terms of numbers of users and it powered the Yahoo! Mail service for quite a while, quite a long time. And then it was bought by VMware, VMware took it into the corporate space. All the time, we're still partners of each identity.
And over the years, we've now become one of the go-to partners in the UK and Europe for Zimbra when they've got somebody that wants to do something with Zimbra on a hosting basis. So, we tend to get involved with a lot of projects that white label and the people that want to host a solution.
So we've got customers from small IT companies that we've been here talking to today, and we've got really large sort of more servers provider type of people who don't want the cost of and hassle of running their own infrastructure, so we do that on a white label basis for them. So that's really what we're doing in a nutshell.
Richard: So, I’m fascinated by Zimbra. So you gave me a demonstration of the product and blown away by just how simple it is and let alone, low administrative overheads to it. I guess Office 365 is the bigger gorilla in the market.
Marc: It sure is, yeah.
Richard: Hosted Exchange before that. Lots of IT companies, people watching this video are going to be very, very familiar with Office 365 and Hosted Exchange.
What does Zimbra offer that maybe Exchange doesn't? So what about feature compatibility? Talk a little bit more about that. And also, maybe things that Zimbra does that Exchange doesn't do, whatsoever?
Marc: Yes so, I mean, it's a question that we get a lot. And I think people think if it's not Exchange, it's going to be some sort of third-party, third-rate solution.
The first thing is, when you give someone a demonstration and explain to them that, "There's your Outlook running with Zimbra at the back end." "Oh, I didn't realize that that was- I thought that was Exchange," because you've got, pretty much, feature priority.
Now, Zimbra is an Exchange server. It's a completely different solution, it's not trying to be Exchange server. Zimbra's set out to redefine the way that email works; that we consume email.
In 2006, we're one of the very first Ajax front end. So before HTML5 was around, before you could really do much in a website, Zimbra's interface was very rich and you could do everything - you can drag and drop, move things around - and that was at the time when the Outlook Web Access was pretty ropy, and you know, wasn't a nice solution to use.
Zimbra came along and said, "You know, you don't need it a client. You can use the web mail as your primary client," and certainly, a lot of people do that. We've got some really big installations just doing webmail only, so Gmail type solution.
But the point is, most businesses, I think, still really want to integrate with Outlook and with their iPhones and their Android phones, etc., and all of that supported out-of-the-box. Some of the things that Zimbra can do that Exchange can't, I mean, you know, it's a different solution. It looks different; it works differently. The sharing is very straight forward. There's an in-built document management solution called the Briefcase which allows you to upload and download documents. It's a bit like a share point portal I suppose, a basic share point portal, but it's really simple and it's and it's built in as part of Zimbra.
You can share that amongst a group of users or departments or company-wide, etc., depending on how sophisticated you want to make the sharing permissions. And it's very easy then to share files. And there’s versioning so you can see whether, find out better file, you can see that it's been changed by me, which version, etcetera and you can revert to different versions.
So that's a feature that's been quite interesting. And something that's coming very soon is Zimbra, I’m probably jumping ahead now…
Richard: No, no, please do, because the next question I was going to ask you is about this feature that's upcoming aboutcollaboration.
Marc: Right. So the Sync and Share solution is Zimbra's new, I guess, extension of the Briefcase which gives you Dropbox-like features inside your private installation of Zimbra. So, you can still share with external users but the data's controlled within your installation.
So if you're on our Cloud, our Cloud’s hosted in the UK, so the data will stay in the UK. If you've got your own installation of Zimbra because you can buy license for Zimbra and you can install it in your office, which, believe it or not, people are still interested in doing, and particularly in industries where that sort of thing matters. You can share your documents and know that the control isn't going outside the organization, which I think is a big concern for the consumer-based file-sharing solutions.
And then, there's various other things coming down the line, Zimbra making great strides with the architecture and they're making it really easy for us as service providers to provide an always on solution, and to scale it out to massive scales.
I mean, one of the biggest partners in the US has got over 40 million mailboxes on one installation, so you know, that gives them some experience to do some quite clever stuff. So yeah, that's where-
Richard: And it's not just email, is it? So we've already talked about the Briefcase and the Dropbox-like facilities but of course one of the questions that is immediately going to come up is around calendaring. Talk to me through the calendaring features, is it comparable to Exchange?
Marc: Yeah, I actually, I really enjoy using the calendar and I’ve really found it improve productivity. Because, for instance, one of the nice features if you're in the web client, you can drag an email on to your mini calendar and it instantly creates an appointment, and it includes you in the meeting invite, it puts the body of the email into the details of the meeting.
And there's also things called, sorry, before I jump into Zimlets – there's things about the calendar that make it really easy. There's a fish-eye view, so when you're looking at your month, you can click on the day and it expands to show you the full day. So just some really nice usability of the calendar.
You can share everything in Zimbra. So, if I wanted to share a work holidays calendar, I can set that up. And just like with Exchange, you can have it auto-accepting, you know, shared results. You can have it auto-accepting meeting requests or deferring the meeting request to the administrator.
It’s terribly sophisticated. It's got what you'd expect from grownup collaboration solution. It isn't third-rate in any stretch of the imagination.
Richard: Definitely not, from everything I’ve seen of it as well. It looks like, you know, I was blown away by the demonstration you gave and how well it came across.
So I guess which begs the question, is the Zimbra one of the industry's sort of best-kept secrets? Why aren't more IT companies offering it, because it's clearly an enterprise-ready solution?
Marc: You're actually, you're right. I think it is a best-kept secret. It's a great solid solution. And I think, Zimbra are addressing that with a new, they recently bought out as a management buyer from VMware and they've created their own company.
They also merge with a social media enterprise, a social media provider, and so there's some integration of social media aspects, of enterprise into Zimbra and that's definitely, we all know that email is changing from a standard "I send you an email, you reply," to a more of a conversational-based thing with IM and all that…
Richard: Today, Marc and myself were having a conversation saying, blowing the minds of some of the resellers saying, "Do you realize, younger people don't use email? They use Instagram and they use Twitter and things like that."
Marc: So certainly, long-term and Rob Howard is the CTO of Zimbra, he came from the social media entity and he's taken over control of product development and so on. He's a really smart guy and he's got some really great ideas about how to move forward the whole email workflow and how to really improve that. So, quite excited to know what's going to come and I think that's where things are going to really start to branch out from.
Zimbra's a great base product now and we've got feature power with Exchange in many areas. But it would be quite nice to move away from the conversation about Exchange, because actually, Zimbra in its own right can offer some real value and I think that's going to start to become apparent soon.
But coming back to your earlier point about what is it that, why should IT companies be selling Zimbra and in a way swimming uphill, because obviously clients are demanding 365 and I do get that. But I think, one of our colleagues in the meeting earlier on brought up a point about, the successful IT resellers are people that really build relationships with their clients and that really have a solid support ethos and they really look after their clients and provide a great service.
And I think that if you've got a relationship with a client, why give your client to Microsoft or to Google or to any other of the big place? Because you know, you can't control what they're going to do. And in our model, the way we sell our services, we sell to you as the reseller, and the reseller sells on to the client. We don't know anything about your client, it's not our interest. Our interest is in providing a great email service and a utility that you can go off and sell on.
So I think that it's building value in your business. It is the key thing, and I think that's what IT resellers need to think about, is you know, "What is the long-term value of my business? And what am I doing?" And you know, sometimes it's harder to do things that what everyone else is doing but long-term, it pays off.
And I guess you have to decide, "Do I want to just be selling what everybody else is selling? Or do I want to differentiate a little bit and actually build something of real value?" And you know, it takes a long time to build value but it's worth it in the long run.
Richard: Continuously surprising me, I guess a little soap boxfor me, but when Microsoft's small business server was retired by Microsoft, there was people up in arms. It was like, "Oh, you're removing my business. You're taking away my business."
And of course, the reality is, there was lots and lots of alternatives to Microsoft's small business server. And I think it's probably the same for hosted email for Exchange and things like that. There's so many good alternative options out there. So I’m flabbergasted that more IT companies aren't investigating solutions like Zimbra and seen how they can package it up, wrap it around, value around it and sell it to clients, that's all. Make themselves a little bit different from everyone else in the industry.
Marc: I mean, I think it's challenging because you know, Microsoft have gotten a massive marketing machine and they do a really great job. Their pricing is very, very aggressive. You've talked, I’ve read your blog post about increasing your prices not decreasing your prices to compete in the marketplace. And I think there's a limit to how cleverly you can get with pricing. You need to be fairly realistic.
But I think it comes back to what value you're offering. If you're offering great value and a great service, then IT should be in the background and it should just function for the people that want to use it. We shouldn't be worrying about what the technology is. Does it serve a purpose and does it do the job? If it does the job for the customer, then the reseller can look at, "How is it fit for my business? Does it give me a long-term future or am I giving my customers to somebody else?"
Richard: So with all that said, let's talk about pricing a little bit. So lots of people who are watching this video are going to be working in the SMB space, where clients are typically cost conscious or price-sensitive. So how does Zimbra matchup in terms of cost? In broad figures, sort of a, in brand figures, against Exchange and the alternatives.
Marc: Well I think, really competitively. I mean, we've worked hard with Zimbra to create some really competitive packages in the market. We're channel-only players so we don't give out pricing to, retail pricing etcetera. Our partners set the prices that they think are appropriate for their market. And they tend to bundle in other services and support, etcetera. So that's how that works.
But you know, definitely highly competitive and there's definitely a cost-saving there over 365 for instance. And we've got various packages starting from sort of basic package POP3 to allow – a lot of our partners, we find have got couple of hundreds, three hundreds POP3 accounts that are hosted with one-on-one or fast hostor something.
Clients are saying, "I need better services. I need to read my email on my iPhone. I want it to sync. I want to be able to send an email on my iPhone and see it in my Outlook on my desk," you know, classic thing. And believe it or not, people still haven't gotten that functionality.
And so, we provide a basic package that has partner to migrate in, give them the same POP3 service. And then, it's just clicking a button to upgrade them to the high-end packages which makes more margin for the reseller. It also saves them headache of having to run the POP3 service which a lot of these hosting packages can be a bit unreliable and can cause problems.
Richard: And talking about reliability, tell me a little bit about the back ends, where are the data centres, where are the data stored? Because a lot of people are going to be, are very interested to see where the data is stored. What does your back end look like?
Marc: Okay, easy now, Richard.
Richard: In the sense that it was made. [laughs]
Marc: So, right, so we got two data centres, one in Manchester and one in London. London's our primary data centre. And we've got our own, everything’s hosted in our own equipment. We're not buying in Amazon EC2 instances, or something like that. This is all done properly.
We use Dell kits. So we've got multiple Dell servers running virtual infrastructure. Obviously, we've got a VM infrastructure. In fact, we've been doing that since the dawn of virtualization and it's helped us achieve a lot of economies of scale and power saving and so on, its much greener.
But yeah, we've got multiple servers and Zimbra's set up in such a way that we've got multiple servers across the platform. So we've got a highly reliable hosting platform, data storage, and etcetera. And we're pretty careful about data backups because, you know, it's the lifeblood emails, the lifeblood of the organization. And I think we save for every one gig of data stored in the mailbox, we're actually storing 8 Gig in total in terms of replications. So every Zimbra server has a partner where all the data is replicated across to that partner server.
And then, we also backup our data in our own data center. We encrypt it and we send out of the data center, encrypt it. So we're storing multiple blobs of data and we're able to restore up to 30 days, mailboxes. And there's a self-restore feature in Zimbra which is really nice, so users can recover even after they've deleted from the trash folder. They can still recover.
And one of the common things they do is they right click their inbox and go 'empty inbox,' and you know, all their mails disappear but they can get those back. And also, because of our backup infrastructure, we can do that.
And again, I think that's one of the things that differentiate us. You can get on the phone to us or email us and we'll respond; we'll do something. You know, we had a reseller panicking the other day because one of their major clients had deleted couple of mailboxes by mistake. In fact, it was a bit more harmless than that, someone had left and deleted some mailboxes and we're able to recover the mailboxes really quickly for them and it was all sorted, no dramas. And I think that, some of the bigger providers are, you don't necessarily get that level of service. It's one of our differentiators.
Richard: What's some really interesting points, actually, especially when you'd look at the lower ends of the market where people are shopping basically on cost, they don't factor in, I guess what you call the total cost of ownership. You don't factor in, "If something goes wrong, is this going to come back and bite me in the bum? Am I going to be able get my day to day work done? So, reassuring to know that you've got those facilities in place.
Marc: Yeah, I mean we've been running this since 2006. And we do little things, like we host all of our Zimbra primary volumes and we keep them under a terabyte in size, and we just have multiple versions.
It means that, if we need to restart our mailbox server and there's a discrepancy check, which if you get forced to run a discrepancy check, you've got to run the discrepancy check otherwise, you're playing with fire. And if you've got multiple terabyte volumes, this can take some hours to scan and even some days in certain cases. So little things like that, experiences taught us to just sort of be cautious and we're very cautious.
We test our new upgrades extensively and we've got a great relationship with Zimbra. We have a bi-monthly call with them, the VP of product development and support, and he feeds back to us anything that's going on and we feed back back up to him. So we got a great two-way relationship and we always know what's going on before we do any major upgrades and so on.
Richard: So Zimbra rate's comparable to Exchange? Feature comparable, in fact it's got some features that Exchange doesn't have. It's just as reliable, it's cheaper.
Marc: Yup, so why aren't they doing it? Exactly, Richard, thanks for the sales pitch.
Richard: Let's switch gears a minute from Zimbra, then, because one of the other areas of InTuition is WordPress hosting, something that I might, my blog is running on WordPress. I run another couple of sites on WordPress. Alright, tell us about the WordPress hosting aspect of the InTuition business.
Marc: Yeah, so we're really excited about WordPress actually. We've been doing WordPress hosting, probably like every other person in the country and well you know, hosting company. We host WordPress sites and we have a development team we use, we power our own stuff with WordPress, our own public-facing websites, etc.
And we came across company, a startup in Canada. And to cut the long story short, we've done a really interesting partnership with them and we've formed a new business to run a WordPress hosting front called easyPress. And the team from easyPress in Canada and ours, we've come together, so they've already got two hosting sites in Canada and America. We've built a brand new hosting facility in our datacenter in Manchester, and we've got replication into London. So we've got a really solid WordPress platform and everything's automated so we can scale out very quickly if we need to add more WordPress service, etc.
We've built a full, it's a full managed WordPress solution, so you've got caching layer; you've got content delivery networks; you've got some security; you've got the ability to lock the site down 9with just a single button click. You can basically change all the permissions to really improve the security.
And I think, most importantly, it's backed up by amazing support. And I think, you've got some experience of migrating to us and…
Richard: Well, I'll happily give a testimonial at this stage.
Marc: Sorry, I wasn't pushing you into giving a testimonial but you know…
Richard: I'm absolutely going to, so I have moved a couple of my WordPress websites across, and moved from a very well-known US hosting company, you know, for the volumes, the data work, all the volumes of business that I get.
For the entire process, fantastic, you know, no down time, everything works seemingly.And Victor and the team in Canada, you know, you got some real stars there because they're real WordPress experts and they know what they're talking about.
I think the proof of the pudding for me is in, I was doing a before and after tests. I like to measure everything and see the difference. So previously, my website was loading around five seconds which feels like an eternity in modern age. And it's actually down to just over one second at the moment. I don't know, you and I, me and Victor talked about it as well and there's probably some tweaking to be done there to get it down.
So, absolutely no change in code, the site moved across as it was, and shaved about four seconds off. So you know, I'm a convert already.
Marc: Yeah, great, and I mean, that's great, and it's exact experience because that's what we found as well with our own sites. They improved exponentially and other people have said, "God, the speed is amazing." And in fact, without even asking, I was telling to someone the other day that moved their site, "God, the admin section is so fast, just click, click, click."
Richard: That's the real thing, In WordPress, the admin section, you know, just flies by. And you know, I’m not a WordPress guru by any means but I tend to spend a lot of time in the admin section and it just absolutely flies.
Marc: Makes a big difference, doesn't it?
Richard: It does.
Marc: Well you know, we've invested a lot of money in hardware, and Victor and the team have really, Victor's a WordPress guru. He's been using WordPress for years and he's created the ultimate, in his mind, the ultimate WordPress stack, if you like. Because, you know, it's not just the case of installing WordPress and PHP, etc., there's all sorts of things that go on the background to make it really fast.
And I think, combined with our experience of running hosting platforms and networking and so on, we've got a really great data centre set up in Manchester, fantastic networking with really good bandwidth and so on.
So we've got a really solid proposition, I think, and we're looking forward to taking it out there and getting on a lot of clients to make a success out of it.
Richard: Good, well, I'm going to follow that story with interest, and I got no doubt you can be successful, amongst other things.
Richard: Now, again, I want to change gears just a little bit. So we've mentioned, the office is in London, we've mentioned the data centre in Manchester, the support team in Canada, I think it's going to be-
Marc: The WordPress guys in Canada, yeah, and mixed it with the guys in the UK as well, before we freak anyone out.
Richard: Yeah, and then, on top of all that, I think people are finding it very interested that you're located, as one of the directors in the business, located out of Andorra, which you call home. I'm intrigued to hear how you, how to manage the team? Just distribute your team across the world, your thoughts on that?
Marc: Yeah, they manage themselves. So, I mean, our team goes back. Matt, who's in charge of our platform, he's worked with me since, pretty much came out of university, so that's, I don't know, I’m guessing 14 years or something.
We started off in a small office in Sussex and we had a data centre under the stairs. So built a rack with some Dell computers running on a 512-kilobit leased line, when leased lines were all the rage, and that's how we started hosting, and we had a development side of the business as well. So we've always had development and hosting and we ended up majoring on hosting and that's where we ended up, becoming into Zimbra partnership and so on.
But, yeah, so Matt and I, head of development call in, both have worked for the company for a long time, and the rest of the gang are all people that have been around for a long time.
And then, I think share the same values about what we want - we want to build a solid company and a team who take responsibility for what they're doing so we don't need to see each other regularly. And we communicate via phone. We've got a great voiceover IP phone system. That means we can keep a line open for low cost. That works really well, so we can, if we're working on a project together, we can just get the line open. We've got Skype, obviously. W Well, I’ve noticed that there isn't a lot of video conferencing going on in a technical company. No one's particularly keen on video.
We use Basecamp project management fairly extensively and we just look into improve that with some, sort of slight more hardcore project management solutions, probably something like Pivotal Tracker or one of the tools from Atlassian. I can't think of the name, Jira, I think it is, isn't it? Just looking around right now for some slightly more grown up agile-based project management solutions.
But we do, I think, email, probably, instant message and Basecamp is the kind of cornerstone of how we run the business these days. And we have regular meetings just like you would in a normal company, but they tend to be a bit more focused because you're not worrying getting cups of tea and messing about, just, you know, on the phone, get the meeting done with and we're pretty focused.
And the great thing about Andorra is its got fantastic communications with Fibre to the door in every house, which…
Richard: I guess we should say, where Andorra is at this point, for those people who don't know.
Marc: So Andorra sits between France and Spain. So it's in the Pyrenees and it's a place of about 70,000 people and a very small principality ran by the co-princes of France and Spain, and it's an independent, democratic parliament with its own constitution, etc.,
And it's not part of the EU, so it's outside of the EU. Going through an enormous change at the moment. There's big, big stuff happening in Andorra. It's really becoming modern, it's a place that was cut off from the world, and mountain people have lived there, and it's changed in the last 40-50 years. It's gone through literally, probably, some people never seeing outsiders to, is now becoming a big commercial hub and the government is really trying to improve things.
So it's an exciting place to be and interesting times. And really easy to communicate, you can get on a plane from Barcelona and be in England in no time at all, so yeah, great lifestyle.
Richard: Yes! And why not? Why not? The technology's there, the team's there, you can manage a business of this nature from anywhere in the world, really. As we've sat here, it's just started snowing outside here in the UK. Why would want to sit here in the cold when you can be sitting in beautiful Andorra?
Marc: Yeah, well, I mean it's been sunny every day since, literally, I think we've had three days of cloudy weather and snow since Christmas. So I mean, it's been sunny every day and yeah, it just really helps, you know. Everyone thinks that I’m spending all day skiing, which is completely untrue.
Richard: Not all day.
Marc: Actually, a friend of mine and I headed out and probably skid less than you will if you went skiing on a holiday. Because you know, we work really hard, really passionate about what we do and really excited to, sort of with the stuff that's happening in WordPress. Some you know, you end up working a lot and that's what actually one of the dangers I think. Because you're a bit divorced from things, you can focus much better and you end up probably working too much.
Richard: I want to touch upon one thing, so obviously one of the downsides to living in a different part of the world is when you want to come back to the UK to see your friends or family, the travel-
Richard: So you've said the flight is not too much trouble but, we're both big fans of Tim Ferriss and some of his travel tips, and I’m fascinated that you've been travel caching.
Marc: Yeah, I've been trying to get the travel caching thing sorted out.
Richard: So for the people who are not familiar, maybe tell them what travel caching is and how you've utilized it for your travels.
Marc: Yeah, so the idea of travel caching is that you know, I hate having loads of luggages, it's just, it's such a pain and being in and getting on the plane and just with a small rucksack and the essentials is ideal because it just means you can get on and off much more quickly and you can sit right at the front of the aircraft. Before, designated seating, I used to sit right at the front because you get off really quick.
But yeah, I think travel caching is where you basically arrange, you know, if you're going to spend a lot of time in a particular place, you arrange some sort of cache of your essentials and I think Tim Ferriss goes as far as caching food, you know, for breakfast because he eats some bean combination or something like that. I’m not going that far, I like my fried breakfast in the hotel.
Richard: We're not quite in the four-hour body shape, you know what I’m saying?
Marc: No, no, no, we haven’t achieved that, have we? But you know; that's going to come later in the year. So yeah sure, what I’ve managed to set up is a location where I can hang my suits and shirts and underwear and suit shoes and things. And it means that, I’ve also got an arrangement with the hotel. Lucky enough that my stepdad was, he made me a member of a club that he was a member of before he passed away, and it's one of the best things he's ever done for me because it just means, it's so convenient and it's in Central London. I can get into London, the room rates are really reasonable and I’ve got a locker there that I can stash my stuff in.
So it means, I can, I came out the other day with a rucksack, a laptop and few essentials and I got my wash kit, all my clothes for the weekend, and then put it back, they wash it, iron it, dry-clean it, etc., and then next time I come over, it's all ready to go.
Richard: That's fantastic, I love it. So you live in Andorra, one of the most beautiful parts of the world. You don't even have to go for the real pain of travel that most of us do, picking up luggage and things. A lot of people watching this are probably going to be getting angry at you at this point in time.
Marc: It's not all bed of roses, and you know, it's taken some years to get to this point where it's got it set up and. It has its down sides, I mean, I’m not sure what they are but…
Yeah, I mean, if somebody says, "Hey, can you come meet us," and it's a really important meeting, you know, that's a day travelling eitherside, and you know, you lose some spontaneity. It does make you plan a bit better.
But I used to be really nervous about it, you know, I was worried that customers might think, "Oh, you know, the service is going to drop off," etc., but I think more and more companies are proving that you don't need to have an office these days.
You know, the people behind WordPress, automatic, they've got a massive business and making massive revenues and they're completely virtual from what I understand.
Richard: It makes much less of a difference nowadays where you're located in the world and any type of people you're working with. So I'm in awe with all you've achieved with the business, with InTuition, blown away by the Zimbra platform. I think it's a real opportunity for IT companies to look into as an alternative to Exchange. So thank you for your time today.
Marc: It's a pleasure. Thanks for your time.
Richard: Really appreciate it, if anybody watching or listening wants to get in touch with you, to talk about Zimbra or WordPress hosting, or even travel caching, or what it's like living in Andorra, how would they reach out to you?
Marc: So probably the easiest thing to do is to hit up the website: in-tuition.net, that's InTuition with a hyphen between the in and the tuition, and just go to contact form and/or give us a ring, and I’ll see most of the contact request come through, so yup, easiest way to get in touch. You've got my contact details, probably.
Richard: Absolutely, I’ll make sure this goes to the show notes as well. You're on Twitter as well?
Marc: On twitter, yeah, so gad0, or gadd0-
Richard: We'll work it out, we'll put it in the show notes.
Marc: Can't believe I forgot my own Twitter handle. So yeah, I'm on Twitter and I’m on Facebook. I tend to use Facebook more for personal stuff but yeah, it would be great to engage with any of your readers and chat about anything.
I'm always keen to talk about technology and or skiing mountains, etc., and food, generally, are the three things we tend to talk about quite a lot, and we haven't really gotten into the food thing.
Richard: Maybe that's for the next installment of the podcast. Well, Marc, thanks so much, really. It means a lot. Cheers.
Marc: Richard, thanks a lot. Really appreciate your time. Cheers.